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 FGFA-PAK-FA

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PostSubject: FGFA-PAK-FA   Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:44 am

India and Russia are set to sign their biggest-ever defence deal with the government’s highest decision-making body clearing a mega proposal for joint development and production of fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA).

The total projected value of the deal is pegged at $30 billion (150,000 crore), with the Indian Air Force (IAF) looking at placing orders for 250-300 of the advanced fighters.

With the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) giving a go-ahead, the formal contract for the joint development and production of the fighters will be signed towards the end of this month during President Dmitry Medvedev’s visit to New Delhi.

proud proud

cheers cheers

here is the link.......



http://www.indianexpress.com/news/india-russia-to-sign-30bn-fighter-deal/723875/

eagerly waiting for your replies guys


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PostSubject: Re: FGFA-PAK-FA   Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:10 pm

@indian : see i have my doubts regarding the indian involvement in this mega and ambitious project.i have no such detailed knowlege of tech things.but i view HAL people as assembelers of foreign fighter aircrafts.they are struggling with LCA which god knows when it will get final clearance(whatever may be the reaon).so please tell me exactly what is indian contribution in this project? also when the PAKFA arrives at the end of this decade and with the probability of a chinese 5th gen fighter also in picture how much will it help us to maintain balance in the region?
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PostSubject: great point ankur   Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:31 pm

great point ankur.... but you need to know that HAL had past experiences like with that of HAL-MARUT or HF-24, when HAL surprised the world by coming up with an aircraft....

LCA they are having trouble mainly because of the failure of kaveri engine......had kaveri been a success then LCA would have had a higher service ceiling as well as a better thrust : weight ratio..not to forget that the american GE-414 & GE-404 engines are too big for LCA-tejas....EJ-2000 would have been better.......but then again corruption had it's way

but anyhow as for stealth fighters are concerned i would not be surprised if HAL pulls of another rabbit out of the hat.......because i have seen the AMCA stealth model & design with composites & DSI intakes......looks really promosing to me......only problem with indian designers is the thrust: weight ratio.....they never get that right & hence the project is compromised ..... but i am hoping for a positive surprise this time

But i perenial fear is uncle SAM if america bullies india like they have bullied other countries then we may well have to shelve the AMCA project & buy F-35s
america forced india to buy P-8I without magnetic anamoly detectors, is forcing india to scrap the AAD PAD programme & buy javelin by closing down the NAG project.....hence i will not be surprised if they do the same thing with AMCA & other fifth generation fighters

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PostSubject: russian flag   Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:21 pm

guys here it comes ........ovrwhelmed with requests...i proudly present this as a gift to all my members........

the one & only russian flag as a smiley



friend friend

long live indo-russian friend

friend proud


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PostSubject: Re: FGFA-PAK-FA   Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:32 am

good work bro!!

@ all

i have little bit different thinking.
well come on you cant do everything! no one is so perfect to adapt to all the things so perfectly. i dunno what is so wrong with us, if we are not getting success then instead of purchasing foreign equipps staight away, we keep waiting for that product to come out, and when it joins we find it inadequate and then we place order for some foriegn equipp, by that time a span of a decade is almost lost. instead why not to purchase a good product first and then integrate it into indegeneous design?? for example we have failed to hit bull's eye with Kaveri, come on yar leave it, go with GE 404 install it on LCA and just make it fly some how! no one cares about it is flying with which heart in it, everyone cares about how many combat ready aircraft we have. same goes with AMCA, instead of doing (dreaming to do) everything on our own, purchase some components directly from our overseas friends install it just for the sake of better and ON TIME results. a very good example of it is, LCH, it is flying with HAL-Turbomeca Shakti engines. a grand success i would say.. we can ask for collaboration.. look at for example SAAB Gripen, SAAB is one of the oldest and one of the classic aircraft manufacturer, till date they havent developed their own engine! Gripen flys with GE414 engine! personally i am very tired of hearing the news of delay associated with EVERY project. Sad none of the project is going on time except C-130 (ofc because of LM). i am not saying that we should not develope our own technology, but HAL has some limitations, there say in USA are many companies helping out with defence equipps like LM, BOEING, NG,Rytheon etc etc, so ofc they get a better product. if we ask for help from private sector then may be we could see something similar to F-22 flying with name AMCA! proud
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PostSubject: Re: FGFA-PAK-FA   Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:55 am

@jaydeep:some questions to you
1>i have heard that some communications eqiuipments were stripped off from c-130 plane because we are not signatory to some kind of act.what kind of message does this send us ?
2>u are correct when u say that we ought to go for GE-404(more preferablY EJ-2000) for LCA but what is the full scope of this cooperation and how much US is determined to transfer critical technologies to us?
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PostSubject: Re: FGFA-PAK-FA   Tue Dec 14, 2010 4:38 am

yes some critical components are removed from the original package, it clearly says that if we want them then we have to sign some deals which are ofc unacceptable. well it was just for an example that if private sector is involved then how fast the production could be. (2 months early than predicted)
as far as EJ200 is concerned they will be offering us complete ToT including single crystal blade technology which was denied to us for Kaveri some years ago, and one of the reasons for failure of Kaveri i.e. tendancy to throw the blades. I think there wont be any problem even if we go with GE, there is nothing striking in the deal which will prevent us from operating LCA on a large scale. i dont see absolutely any problem with GE or EJ. if there is any then i am unaware of it, if any one knows then please do post.
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PostSubject: this is something interesting.   Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:11 am

http://asiandefence.blogspot.com/2010/12/what-russias-stealth-fighter.html
in this link it says
The Indian version of the PAK FA is said to have a radar cross section of 0.5 square meter, the equivalent of a missile’s RCS. By comparison, older tactical jets have RCSs between 5 and 100 square meters. For example, the fourth-generation Su-30MKI has a RCS of approximately 20 square meters. (20 is Wiki number and its fake for sure, estimated RCS of MKI is between 5-10).
The stealthogenic cloaking device under development could reduce the PAK FA’s radar cross section even further, making it potentially as stealthy as the F-22, which has the RCS of a small bird or a bumblebee at between 0.001 and 0.01 square meter.
affraid affraid affraid
The PAK FA and F-22 differ from the F-35 in that both can carry two short-range air-to-air missiles in internal side compartments, which significantly reduces their RCS and enables them to maintain their stealth outlines, even when carrying additional weapons. The F-35’s engine nozzle may give it a stealth disadvantage versus the PAK FA. This means a PAK FA flying high above an F-35 could potentially detect and track the F-35’s nozzle. In a battle against an F-35 formation, the PAK FA’s stealth and radar would likely be significant force multipliers.
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PostSubject: Re: FGFA-PAK-FA   Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:13 am

Ultimately, the PAK FA is expected to have an AESA radar system with 1,500 individual transmitter/receiver (T/R) modules. A prototype is being tested, and development should be completed in mid-2010.[ In comparison, the F-22’s AESA radar system has about 2,000 T/R modules.


In addition to AESA radar, the PAK FA will have a side-looking radar and a rear-facing radar. The sting fairing in the tail, located between the engine’s exhaust nozzles, may harbor a small fire-control radar for detecting airborne targets and attacking missiles and to provide fire-control solutions for its air-to-air missiles. With AESA radars in the nose and tail, the PAK FA could cover 120 degrees of both the plane’s front hemisphere and its rear hemisphere. In addition, the aircraft will have an L-band AESA radar in conformal arrays on the wings’ leading edges. According to some reports, L-band arrays can detect stealth aircraft the size of the F-35.


The PAK FA’s design may also allow placement of additional AESA conformal arrays on the fighter’s surfaces that could provide radar coverage of its starboard and port sides, allowing all-round radar surveillance. Perhaps with this in mind V. K. Naik, the Indian Air Force Chief of Staff, said that the FGFA’s “highly advanced avionics…[would be] giving 360-deg. situational awareness.”In addition, the PAK FA’s AESA radar will have electronic countermeasures that can jam enemy radar. The F-35 has a similar system.
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PostSubject: Re: FGFA-PAK-FA   Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:19 am

Weapons.

With a maximum length of about 22 meters and a wingspan of 14.8 meters, the PAK FA will be similar in size to the Russian Su-27 Flanker fighter. Both aircraft are larger than the F-22, which has an overall length of 18.9 meters and a wingspan of around 13.6 meters. Because of its larger size, the PAK FA will be able to carry more fuel, more missiles, and heavier bombs internally. It will also be able to carry numerous kinds of weapons, enabling it to simultaneously attack multiple surface and air targets in all weather conditions— hence, its classification as a multirole fighter.


The PAK FA could carry a deadly mix of weapons. Russia’s Vympel State Machine-Building Design Bureau is reportedly developing very long-range beyond-visual-range (BVR) missiles and short-range air-to-air missiles designed to fit inside the PAK FA’s weapon bays.[82] Development of the new R-77M BVR missile is due to be completed in 2010. The PAK FA could carry eight of these missiles in its two main weapon compartments. Like the F-35, the PAK FA may also be able to carry an additional BVR missile attached to the inner side of each weapon compartment door, enabling it to carry four R-77M missiles while reserving internal space for two bombs or two very long range air-to-air missiles. Another weapon under development for the PAK FA is the ramjet-powered R-77M-PD, which has a reported range of 160 km, twice that of the R-77M. The PAK FA could carry four of them internally.
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PostSubject: Re: FGFA-PAK-FA   Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:19 am


The original R-37 air-to-air missile (maximum range of 300 km) was designed to shoot down valuable air targets, such as airborne warning and control system (AWACS) aircraft, Joint Surveillance Target Attack Radar System (J-STARS) aircraft, air tankers, reconnaissance planes, electronic warfare aircraft, transport aircraft, Airborne Laser aircraft, and bombers. Improved versions of the R-37 missile are under development, including the R-37M very long-range air-to-air missile (range of 300 km to 400 km) and the Izdelie 810 (range of 375 km to 450 km). They will also be able to engage targets at extremely high altitudes. Both of these next-generation missiles will have active and passive radar guidance systems designed to seek enemy radar and electronic countermeasures emissions. In passive mode, an R-77M missile could conceivably target an F-35 at up to 240 km if the F-35 is using its AESA radar in a jamming operation.


In addition to the larger weapons compartments, the PAK FA has two smaller compartments located in the rear, which could each carry one short-range air-to-air missile.[88] This design feature was borrowed from the F-22, which has two smaller side compartments, which could each hold one AIM-9M or AIM-9X .



The PAK FA’s smaller compartments could accommodate several types of short-range air-to-air missiles. One possibility is an improved Vympel R-73M short-range air-to-air missile with a high off-boresight capability, which enables it to turn 160 degrees to engage enemy targets in the plane’s rear hemisphere using infrared guided-missile technology. It could lock on before or after launch, and the rear AESA radar could provide the necessary targeting information. This new missile, the Izdelie 760 or R-74, may have a range of around 40 km. It is due to enter production this year. Alternatively, the PAK FA could carry the Vympel K-30, a new compact short-range air-to-air missile, or the K-MD short-range air-to-air missile, a new weapon for close combat and for shooting down enemy missiles, which could be developed by 2013.
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PostSubject: Re: FGFA-PAK-FA   Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:19 am

In its larger weapon compartments, the PAK FA could accommodate two precision-guided 1,500 kilogram (kg) bombs, such as the new KAB-1500LG family of laser-guided bombs. The PAK FA could also carry two satellite-guided KAB-500S-E bombs, which weigh 500 kg, or new versions that could weigh 1,500 kg. These bombs are dubbed “Russia’s JDAM” after the highly effective U.S. bomb guidance package.

The U.S. Phantom Ray unmanned combat air vehicle (UCAV), which has been proposed as the basis for a future bomber, could carry two 1,000 kg JDAM bombs, or a payload of up to 2,000 kg, on a long-range strike mission of 3,704 km. The stealthy UCAV can also carry eight Small Diameter Bombs and refuel in the air independently and repeatedly to enable it to conduct global strike operations.[94] The PAK FA, by contrast, could have an internal bomb payload exceeding 3,000 kg. In addition, the PAK FA might be able to carry two subsonic Kh-35E anti-ship missiles (range of 130 km) internally.[95] The PAK FA may also be able to carry two Kh-35UE GLONASS satellite-guided missiles, which can strike land targets at a range of 260 km.

The PAK FA may also have up to eight external hardpoints to which additional missiles and bombs could be mounted. The Indian FGFA and the PAK FA may be armed externally with “BrahMos supersonic missiles,”[98] which were jointly developed by Russia and India, or the 3M55 Oniks anti-ship missile, which has a maximum speed of Mach 2.6 at altitude and a range of at least 300 km.

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PostSubject: speed   Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:20 am


The PAK FA and F-22 are expected to have roughly equivalent top speeds and altitudes, but the F-35 is potentially less capable in both areas. The F-22 has demonstrated supercruise speeds above Mach 1.5 and is designed for sustained supersonic operation without using afterburners. Reportedly, it has a maximum supercruise speed of Mach 1.82 at 30,000 feet (9,000 meters) altitude. Russian sources claim that the PAK FA is slightly faster (Mach 1.83) at 30,000 feet.High supercruise speeds enable these aircraft to control wide expanses of territory. The F-35 will not have supercruise capability.



Using afterburners, the F-22 has a maximum speed of about Mach 2.5, likely faster than the PAK FA. Although the Russian air force initially established the PAK FA’s maximum speed at Mach 2.5, it revised its operational requirement downward to Mach 2 in December 2004. Nevertheless, the PAK FA will probably be able to reach Mach 2.45 with afterburners. The T-50 and F-22 will likely have the same service ceiling of about 20,000 meters. By contrast, the F-35’s maximum speed at altitude is about Mach 1.6 or more than Mach 1.8 with afterburners, and its maximum altitude is estimated to be 15,000 meters.
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PostSubject: http://asiandefence.blogspot.com/2010/12/pak-fa-with-brahmos.html   Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:22 am

The PAK FA chief designer Alexander Davydenko said, that during development work, the fight between T-50 and F-22 was modelled with good outcome for T-50. He also informed that the new avionics, weapon systems are already exist but will appeared latter since the 1st prototype is not ready for actually weapon carring. The 2015 as the end term for starting serial supply was confirmed too.
Most inportant he said, T-50 will be built together with India 'in paritet principle 50 and 50%', and can be equipped with 'Brahmos' missiles. It's first official confirmation about possibility of 'Brahmos' installation on PAK FA/FGFA fighter. Hiwever, it's not clear whether these missiles would be installed on the internal or external bays. Anyway, it can be 1-2 missiles only due to heavy habitus of 'Brahmos' supersonic missile.
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PostSubject: @Jaydeep   Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:45 pm

in my opinion iaf should be looking at 1 brahmos carried internally along with a pair of short range AAMs in shoulder bays and 2 med range AAMs in may bay along with a pair of backward facing ones in the aft bay (f the space permits). Reminds me of the 3 in-line bays on B1 lancers which could be converted to 1 large bay by removing the blockheads. if this could be achieved on FGFA Question Question you never know Smile

Accelerating beyond mach 2.2 is not advised for both F22 & PAKFA-FGFA. Read somewhere that stealth coating peal off at such speed and related heating issues. Both birds would like to ingress as well as egress from engagements without revealing their whereabouts to anyone interested. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: FGFA-PAK-FA   Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:43 am

also causing damage to the lining on exahust which reduces the IR signature, so mach-2 is ideal for PAKFA. well we can not comment on PAKFA's wepaons carrying capacity, as some of the weapons which are developed specially for PAKFA are still under developement so, less is known about them. 1 Brahmos on board would be enough.
main purpose of PAKFA is to nutralize the close military assets or SAM battiers which can provide direct threat to any of the incoming friendly troops, or waves of bombers/ fighters. so 1 or at the max 2 brahmos, coupled with laser guided bomb, tv guided bombs, AGMs, 2-3 A2A missiles for self protection would be the best package on warfront. we can not deny its role as an air superiority fighter though, and for that role, we can install short, medium , long, ultra long range a2a missiles on board.
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PostSubject: Re: FGFA-PAK-FA   Sat Dec 18, 2010 3:56 pm

@jaydeep:see the air launched brahmos is a bulky and voluminuos weapon system.so if a stealth fighter carries say one or two of these weapons on it's hardpoints will that not increase it's RCS by a substantial level?
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PostSubject: Re: FGFA-PAK-FA   Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:35 pm

as per some of the sketches which i have seen, PAKFA has plenty of its internal bay capacity, so i guess it can incorporate 1 Brahmos with 2 A2A missiles for self defence at one shot..
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PostSubject: Re: FGFA-PAK-FA   Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:38 pm

actually what i wanted to say through

main purpose of PAKFA is to nutralize the close military assets or SAM battiers which can provide direct threat to any of the incoming friendly troops, or waves of bombers/ fighters. so 1 or at the max 2 brahmos, coupled with laser guided bomb, tv guided bombs, AGMs, 2-3 A2A missiles for self protection would be the best package on warfront. we can not deny its role as an air superiority fighter though, and for that role, we can install short, medium , long, ultra long range a2a missiles on board.[color=white]

is we have a wide choice of arms, which can be carried on board if we have to do some particular roles as mentioned.
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PostSubject: PAK-FA T50 Details...   Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:05 pm

Radar Positions


Armament and Internal Weapon Bays


F-35 Design Problems


F-22 Struggles..
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PostSubject: chinese 5th gen- Test PICS....   Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:47 am

shit guys....

http://bbs.tiexue.net/post_4754120_1.html

chinese 5th gen up in the sky...........
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PostSubject: hi   Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:49 pm

nice video..
@jaydeep:-yes my friend i read about j-20 which didnt came at all as a surprise but the question that troubles me is why russia is helping china to such an extent to make its owm 5th gen fighter and why the fuck the indians dnt ask the russians that why are they??
not to mention this will be bad enough for russia as j20 will complement fgfa in the foreign markets.
or they did just so that india in dier needs sign the deal for fgfa to galvanize their air industry it seems that they have bacame a double dealer...
Now what next a spacecraft.... lol! lol! lol! lol!
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PostSubject: Re: FGFA-PAK-FA   Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:45 am

The Indian FGFA is significantly different from the Russian PAK FA because a second pilot means the addition of another dimension, development of wings and control surfaces.
he PAK-FA SH121 radar complex includes three X-Band AESA radars located on the front and sides of the aircraft. These will be accompanied by L-Band radars on the wing leading edges. L-Band radars are proven to have increased effectiveness against very low observable (VLO) targets which are optimized only against X-Band frequencies, but their longer wavelengths reduce their resolution.

The PAK-FA will feature an IRST optical/IR search and tracking system.

Sukhoi recently demonstrated cockpit mock-ups, which may relate to both Su-35 or PAK-FA, suggest two very large multi-function displays (MFDs) and a very wide heads-up display (HUD)
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PostSubject: Re: FGFA-PAK-FA   Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:25 am

hey guys all dis is fine.these r small issues. according to me if u look at it practically the bigger problem is with HAL s limited resources. Even the induction of the 200 0dd tejas aircraft is going to take a good 7 years.So if we logically look at the fgfa, we l hav a 200 strength only after 15 - 20 years which is not good in the current global security setup.So efforts should be taken to expand HALs facilities or search for an alternative.




awaiting ur response
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PostSubject: FGFA Design....   Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:45 pm

Indian Twin Seater FGFA Design...
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