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 WHAT SHOULD BE THE COUNTERMEASURE

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ukschauhan87
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PostSubject: WHAT SHOULD BE THE COUNTERMEASURE   Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:04 pm

Dear friends this is the link which i am going to post has shaken my deepest knowledge and fear which i hold in the defence scenario of india..
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news.php?id=173
i would like you to go through it ,although it might disturb you more than a bit but if you are willing to read than please give suggestion what a common person/man should do to protect its country which he holds so dear.
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PostSubject: HI   Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:14 pm

one thing i must admit that i know that it wont make any difference and no one will read my letters but still i felt an obligation to write to all big name politicians and defence personal what i felt and so i did..
dear friends i know we count for nothing in this 1 billion nation but i want to ask you one thing if we do not do anything aren't we as an educated mass of this great nation is equally responsible for its turmoil .if we do not show any interest in our own nation success and failure that what right we have to call overselves indian and be proud of it .So my friends if you think you have an obligation towards this great nation then do something anything but together as this is very important so my friends if you have any idea or a way to deal with it please share and and let people join your idea.
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PostSubject: mission china   Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:07 pm

this is a deeply disturbing piece of article, something which has shaken my conscience

i did not know that india has conceded territory in ladakh, & sikkim, now it all makes sense the reports in the media in 2009 was so true & NOT AT ALL hyped up as the congress government claimed.....therein lies the difference in response.......in 1999 when pakistan took advantage of india's trust ........the vajpayee government threw everything at pakistan & took the media's help rather than criticising it for breaking the story......the UPA's policy seems to be to gag the messenger so that the public does not hear or read the truth & enjoys a false sense of security.

this policy may work for electoral gains but not in strategic geopolitics

now for the counter measures

1. since the first chinese incursion will most likely be directed through land...... across the himalayas.....it is advised that india raises a dedicated special force expertizing in mountain warfare in rugged territories.....in my opinion atleast a force of 70-000 such men is required.......which needs to be raised within the next two years.......to compliment this strategy india needs to increase the number of INDO-TIBETAN-BORDER POLICE to 50-000 personnel because they will act as the eyes & ears of the nation .....the ITBP should be equipped with attack helicopters for checking incursions & transport helicopters for mobility. the ITBP should be armed with MANPADS to counter chinese helicopters.......another important equipment which will play an important role in a stand-off is modern artillery .....the chinese have modern MBRL with ranges over 300-km whereas most of india's artillery has a range anywhere between (25-40) km.... india needs to buy more smearch from russia to counter the chinese threat........if possible go in for a JV with russia to develop long range MBRL with range over 250-km

2. the next biggest threat is chinese aerial invasion......for this there is only one solution......the S-400....only the S-400 or SA-21 growler can thrawt chinese intentions of an air-raid......no other system other than the S-400 can counter the chinese threat, it is sad rather than buying S-400 off-the-shelf from russia , india is spending a huge amount on a JV with israel, that too one which will take 7-8 years before it can enter operation....If india had the S-400 then china would not have dared to deploy the J-10 aircrafts in tibet.....

3. lastly the water borne invasion....in this front i see total indian surrender because the IN simply does not have the resources to conter the chinese navy......but i will still give some proposals ......try to build up an submarine fleet of more than 48 diesel electric submarines.....that's the only way the chinese threat can be tackled......india had an agreement with france & DCNS that india may excercise the option of buying 6-more scorpenes apart from the original 6 .....i propose to implement that clause right away & start building another 6 if possible in france itself......i now give a proposed breakup of acquisitions which will deter the chinese fleet

A) Buy 12 amur-1650 submarines from russia equipped to be fitted with the BRAHMOS
B) Buy 12 A-26 SSK from kockums sweden......it is a proven fact that the A-26 by far is the quitest & deadliest of all disel electric submarines......they can be used very effectively against the chinese flotilla
C) buy 12 U-214 from HDW germany... this will be a serious game changer because the U-214 has a maximum diving depth of more than 400-metres.....where no depth charges can reach
D) buy 12 scorpenes from dcns france ......this scorpenes being not very advanced will play a defensive role in protecting the shallow water coastline

If india wants to be a naval power then hypothetically deals for all the SSKs should be signed in 2010 itself with a clause that every supplier will deliver their 12 submarines within the next 12-years.......

D) and lastly india should buy the design of advanced russian nuclear submarines for nuclear deterrence ......though this will not be a game changer but it will give india some options of using strategic nukes against selective targets.

i hope that brother uks wil find my suggestions useful confused confused
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ukschauhan87
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PostSubject: HI   Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:49 am

yes i find your suggestion really nice but i think in this time the most important thing we can do as a civilian is to make its politician realize that the indian common public is not sitting ideal and for that we should all write to all the important sectors of india not only by mail but by hand too they will ignore first but they have to take notice of and understand india is watching as a student whatever we can do we should do,like a campain so but that should be together not alone "akela chana bhand nahin phor sakta hai"
we have obligation to this country and mostly its people who are not that much educated and if they are they dont know much so if we are the one who have the knowledge shouldnt we use it.
stephen king once said "Hope is a good thing may be best of things and no good things ever die"
cant we hope that we can make a slight change
will look for your reply...
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PostSubject: hi   Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:09 am

@jaydeep
could you mail me a brief scenario of indian navy present and future strength status on my email is ujjwalcool87@gmail.com
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PostSubject: countermeasures   Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:21 am

well UKS you are right that the people should take initiative to force the hand of the government... but for that we need an responsible yet independent media.....both print & telivision.....the editor-in-chiefs of news channels & editors of the print media need to be well versed with strategic geopilitics.........the only way we can utilize the media is by writing letters to the editor of newspapers......& requesting them to cover the threat of chinese aggresion .......at first they will ignore such feed back from one or two individuals......but if the request comes from more than 300-400 persons they they will sit up & take notice......but to achieve that goal the first attempt should be to gather 300-400 such like minded individuals.......for that we must use internet forums & social networking sites like FB to reach out to like minded individuals who also feels for the country.....once gathered these people should work in co-ordinated groups to enlighten the people about the grave threat.......but all said & done UKS i don't see the media budging.. simply because the UPA government has bought out several news channels with money & several newspapers.......great example is barkha dutt.......she openly flaunts her congress connections & yet claims to be the neutral face of indian journalism....infact what she does is to manipulate stories to project the UPA government in favourable light.......however people like rajdeep sardesai of CNN-IBN & Arnab Goswami of TIMES-NOW are trying their best to be independent & free from political pressure......ZEE news is also independent......therefore the strategy should be to write to these neutral & independent media houses rather than biased & politically partisan people

This is the first non-political step that should be taken..........i will tell about the other strategies later.....right now it's late & i have some appointments tomorrow

waiting for your reply

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PostSubject: China in maldives   Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:09 am

affraid affraid

just read this


the link is provided at the end of the post......check out the link





China has engineered a manner of a coup by coaxing Maldives' Abdul Gayoom government to let it establish a base in Marao. Marao is one of the largest of the 1192 coral islands grouped into atolls that comprise Maldives and lies 40 km south of Male, the capital.
Coral islands make fine submarine pens. The Peoples' Liberation Army Navy or PLAN proposes to deploy nuclear submarines fitted with sea-launched Dong Feng-44 missiles and ballistic missiles (SLBMs) in Marao.
Scientists warn that global warming is pushing up ocean and sea levels. They fear that most of Maldives will be submerged by year 2040. Marao may be one of the few large islands that may survive. "And even if it goes under water," said a naval official, "it will be ideal for submarines."
The base deal was finalised after two years of negotiations when Chinese prime minister Zhu Rongji visited Male on 17 May 2001 on his four-nation South Asian tour. It marks a high point in China's ambitious - and audacious - plan to encircle India and choke its emergent blue-water navy in the Indian Ocean itself.
And it indicates schisms with Maldives, a friendly country saved from a coup by Indian special forces in November 1988.


In February 2001, a small delegation from Pakistan visited Maldives to boost cultural ties. "The Pakistanis put pressure on Male to facilitate Chinese plans for a naval base," said an official. "China used Pakistan to play the Islamic card with Maldives."
China is close to striking a formal deal with Maldives for Marao. It will use Marao islands for 25 years on lease and pay back Maldives in foreign currency and create jobs for the locals dependent entirely on tourism and fishing.
Superpower ambitions
The Marao base's principal aim would be to contain the Indian navy. "China," said a naval official, "is worried that the Indian Navy is getting more natural islets in the Indian Ocean and Bay of Bengal to establish bases that can impose a sea denial on China in case of a conflict in the South China Sea and harm Chinese interests in the Indian Ocean region."
But the Marao base is not expected to be operational until 2010. In the interim, according to a November 2000 white paper on China's national defence, PLAN and PLA's naval air force could deploy a minimum of two aircraft carrier battle groups and five submarine groups in the Indian Ocean. Oilers, AWACS and refueling aircraft will support these groups.
But once Marao comes up, China's power projection in the Indian Ocean will stabilise. It will also set China on the course followed in the earlier superpower, Cold War rivalry between the US and the Soviet Union. Both states built a series of naval bases throughout the world for emergency counter-offensive measures. China is embarked on doing the same.
More bases signify a bigger navy. This is also on the cards. According to the November 2000 white paper, China is moving away from Mao Zedong and Zhou Enlai's "People's War" doctrine biased toward land-based wars and land-based forces to a greater thrust on sea-based forces. The 2001-2002 defence budget gave PLAN a higher share of 35 per cent but cut the army allocation to 29 per cent.
American worry
These developments have worried the US that has proposed to its ASEAN allies and friendly countries to create a joint command to contain China and prevent its expansion in the South China Sea and the Indian Ocean. The US is keen for India to hasten construction of the Far Eastern Naval Command in the Andaman Islands, and this was repeated by the chairman of the US joint chiefs, General Henry H. Shelton, who visited India recently.
Specific to the Marao base, the US sent navy chief Dennis Blair to Maldives a month after Rongji's visit to take stock of China's military diplomacy. While the US base in Diego Garcia can launch surprise offensives, the US wants to restrict Chinese presence in the Indian Ocean because of its strategic value.
According to one survey, some $260 billion worth of oil and gas will be shipped through the Indian Ocean by year 2014. The oil route stretching from the Strait of Malacca to the Strait of Hormuz will be at the mercy of any power that dominates the sealanes. A Chinese base in Marao islands puts it in a direct position to influence oil commerce. It is a prospect that daunts India, scares Southeast Asia, and alarms the US.
On Wednesday, 25 July 2001, US defence secretary Donald Rumsfeld said that the US needed to keep a strong military presence in Asia to deter any future threats from China. "I've always felt," he said, "that weakness is provocative, that it kind of invites people to do things that they otherwise wouldn't think about doing." He disclosed that the Pentagon was evolving a new strategy for Asia that would focus on military operations.

Chinese checkers
But China is pressing ahead with its military plans with equal vigour - and stealth. It is most noticeable in the Marao affair. Indian officials say that China engaged two American and three European companies in the past two years to conduct aerial and deep-sea surveys to assess Maldives' suitability for a base. But the agreement with the companies was for monitoring the weather and magnetic response of the seabed in and around Male.
And yet, such environment-protection surveys may be more than a cover for a base. Environmental protection could also carry a political thrust. Maldives told the UN in 1987 that a 6.6 feet rise in sea level could submerge all of the country. Sea level is rising because of global warming. Global warming is a matter of paranoia for Maldives.
Maldives has criticised the decision of US president George Bush to reject the Kyoto pact on global warming. China calls the US decision "irresponsible", though it is one of the largest emitters of the global-warming carbon dioxide gas, and Zhu Rongji said in Male that China would work with Maldives on environmental issues.
"It will," said an official, "take China next to nothing to convert an honourable campaign against global warming into an anti-American campaign in Maldives."


http://www.dhivehiobserver.com/speicalreports/China-base-in-Maldives0705051.htm


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PostSubject: hi   Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:56 am

@jaydeep@admin
you are absolutely right jaydeep and that is the reason i have shared my views with you all and i have collected all the mail id of the media house plus i am also seeking my friends help who are in this kind of bussiness.
i am also writing my article to send to these newschannel regarding our army ,navy and air force i just have almost completed the army section and for that i asked for your help regarding navy .
i know the only way we can make media house listen is by sending them tons of response but i can not do it alone guys i need your help and support ..
for our country flag keep flying always...
regards ujjwal
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PostSubject: hi   Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:10 am

@admin
yes you are right my friend about the string of pearls
http://rupeenews.com/2009/05/21/helpless-delhi-overruled-on-chinese-bases-in-maldives-and-lanka/
this links shows how the us a playing a double sided role in indian ocean and cornering india.
i would really appreciate if you can write a comprehensive indian navy present and future strength and its implication regarding strings of pearls.
an send it on ujjwalcool87@gmail.com
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PostSubject: hell of reason to fear    Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:03 pm

friends read this thread and see our most reliable friend condition
http://asiandefence.blogspot.com/2010/12/russia-unable-to-win-possible-war-with.html
hell of a reason why we should see to defend our shelves from china
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PostSubject: Re: WHAT SHOULD BE THE COUNTERMEASURE   Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:01 am

hey friend ujjwal, i have mailed you about IN's present and future, i hope you have read it, was that useful??
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PostSubject: @Everyone   Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:33 pm

Friends the concern is even more serious, reason 1: the political parties as stated are bunch of rascals. reason 2: patriotic feeling is at all time low, with no morals. reason 3 : security crunch and no public - security co-operation. there are wolves holed in deep here. we have info but action will not be taken because they have political protection.
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PostSubject: @Ujjwal   Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:39 pm

could you please invite some authority people on this forum, i have huge info but it is not safe to share like that. And here I know there is political support and police is not manly to get these bastards in their coffins.
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PostSubject: Re: WHAT SHOULD BE THE COUNTERMEASURE   Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:10 pm

@indian:i appreciate ur analysis.now let me ask u some questions and put up some points on my own.
1>about the land invasion thing.i read in a CLAWS article about the china's rapid reaction force being raised and deployed in the north east sector which are capable of performing a wide variety of tasks just like special forces.they are well supported by PLAAF in maintaing their mobility.second thing,i read about is india's interest in buying israel's iron dome system which is basically an anti rocket system.this supposedly has been in response to china's massive investment in long range precision rocket artillery system with range extending 300-400kms.
2>about the air force thing.u call for india to procure s-400.but i think as much as i know several akash batteries can do the job for us .according to drdo it can tackle wide variety of air borne targets icluding sub sonic criuse missiles.the range is one issue for akash but then is russia reasy to give s-400 like systems for us since as i know we have already ordered akash missiles to be deployed in north east sector.why go for differnt systems?
3>for the naval aspect we need new ssk's with AIP technology.but how did u reach the magical figure of 48.can u explian that number.also the division of it in different types of submarines.plus u have china getting bases in IOR,supposedly development of an anti ship ballistic missile.
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PostSubject: the reply   Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:24 am

ankur i appreciate your feedback but i have the right to rebutt.... 1st first point you mentioned is about china's
china's rapid reaction forces....there lies the answer in your question itself...as you have rightly said these forces will
be supported by PLAAF transport helicopters transport planes & fighters for precision attacks.... i will come to the fighters later
but as for the transport helicopters & planes, they can be destroyed by advanced MANPADS that's why i
specifically mentioned about arming india's own reaction force with advanced MANPADS...since MANPADS are mobile & carried by shoulder they
are difficult in taregetting by fighters who will escort chinese transport aircrafts.. if india utilizes these mobile MANPADS then to a great extent
the chinese rapid reaction force will be neutralized......ALWAYS REMEMBER THAT NEAR THE lOC OR BORDER WITH CHINA THERE ARE PEAKS , & THE ONLY
WAY TO ENTER INTO INDIAN TERRITORY IS TO CROSS THOSE PEAKS BY TRANSPORT HELICOPTERS BECAUSE THE ADVANCED NETWORK OF ROADS THAT CHINA HAS BUILT STILL
CANNOT ENSURE SUPER FAST MOBILITY DUE TO THE NATURE OF THE TERRAIN..... now if india strategically uses mobile MANPADS against those transport helicopters/planes
then the threat can be neutralized in some respect.

now lets come to the iron dome ....look ankur the iron dome though state of the art cannot possibly defend all precision guided incoming rockets..moreover
it's primary aim is to defend not destroy...the only way to tackle the chinese artillery is to destroy it rather than defend against it...as you must know very well
that chinese will rain down rockets simultaneously & the IRON DOME can only engage 16 rockets at a time. i am sure the chinese will launch atleast 30-40 rockets simultaneously
now my question to you is if china rains down 30-40 rockets at a time & if IRON DOME can tackle only 16 of those .....who will protect against the remaining 24 ???? think about it..
the only way to engage chinese artillery is to destroy those units either with BRAHMOS, SHAURYA or by developing india's own 300-km range artillery....but that will take
atleast 10-years to materialize..... but on the other hand BRAHMOS & SHAURYA cannot be transported to the action front because of mobility issues...so the only option remains is to covertly develop
300-km range artillery with russian help........even if it takes time so be it...as there is no other option

2nd point : about AKASH ......man you are falling into the same trap once again.....china will use anti-radiation missiles for SEAD role...the range of those missiles are such that
they can be launched from a great distance without even coming near the range of AKASH. why i want S-400 is because it can track 100 targets simultaneously from 300-350 km away compared to AKASH'S
ability to track around 16-24 only at a maximum distance of approximately 40-km away..... now you tell me how will AKASH protect india from the blitzkreig of chinese missile barrage & simultaneous
air-raid by hundreds of fighters at a time ????? why i say s-400 is because it can engage chinese fighters while they are in chinese territory itself.. well before they can engage ground targets inside india
or our own fighters......as far as why russia will whine about selling it to us....the answer is simple....russia itself views china as a growing threat...more than even NATO & they will do everything to help india
against china......just a small point........russia has great ties with china .....but that's all at the face level....deeper inside both countries view each other with great suspicion.....so much so that russia sells
china only those weapons which it has already sold to india.....for example the sukhoi-30mki of india is atleast a generation ahead of chinese sukhoi-30MKK.....now i will answer the unanswered part of the question in point 1
that is now you know that why i insist on MANPADS.... because the greater threat of chinese fighter squadrons escorting transport helicopters & aircrafts....... will be tackled by the S-400 itself.

3rd point : about the AIP ssks & the number 48........ahem ahem........well who told you that the submarines i proposed india to buy will not have AIP ????? the u-214 have proven AIP technology so does the A-26, the next generation
socrpenes & marlins will also have AIP ....only thing is about russian amur.....even they are developing AIP... now to the number of 48..... well well as you know the chinese have ballistic anti-ship missiles &
ultra-long range hypersonic anti-ship missiles..... there fore it can easily be sufficed that the surface fleet of the indian navy will be rendered ineffective by these chinese systems in case of a naval conflict....so the only option left
is submarines that too only diesel-electric SSKs because they are harder to detect than nuclear-powered noisy SSNs......now to the number 48 ...... as you may be knowing a disel electric ssks can carry anywhere between 16-24 torpedoes at maximum....
there fore to engage the chinese naval flottila of 25 destroyers + 55 frigates + 63 submarines + 130 support-warships + 100 odd logistical supply vessels like tankers , landing crafts etc = 370 targets ............ number of SSks required is 370/16= 24 ssks approximately.....
considering that chinese submarines will also engage indian ssks & will sink atleast half of them in a conflict...... the figure needed can be safely doubled....i.e 24*2= 48........ still another 8-10 extra ssks will be required to enforce a naval blockade of any country trying to take advantage of the
naval conflict with china....... so you see the number 48 is a rough estimation to be on the safe side........but in the case of china it is bettre to be in the safe side....u never know with them......

Best of luck buddy !!!!


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